In the Israel – Palestine debate, the actions and supposed intentions of Hamas are invoked in defense of Israel’s actions. Unless and until Hamas is eliminated, the logic goes, Israel has no choice but to continue on its current course.
But does this make sense? Does the argument withstand careful scrutiny? Let’s explore.
Hamas came to be in the late ’80s, some 40 years after the 1947-48 war in which 700,000 Palestinians were killed or displaced, and 20 years after the 1967 war, in which Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Settlement construction, occupation, and the brutal persecution of Palestinians were all well underway before Hamas hit the scene. And Israel actually facilitated the strengthening of Hamas early on, in an effort to weaken Fatah.
Before Hamas, it was Fatah that was demonized as a terrorist organization.
What do Hamas and Fatah in its early stage have in common that caused them to be labeled terrorists? Leadership of a resistance movement. That’s what resistance fighters do to resist oppression.
What changed with Fatah? Fatah was given the opportunity to trade what Palestinians define as resistance fighting and what Israel and its patron, the US, define as terrorism for legitimacy, and Fatah’s leaders, already doing well personally, chose legitimacy. Who knew?
Would Hamas eventually follow the same path? Actually, tt’s already halfway down that path. It’s expressed a willingness to agree to the pre-1967 borders. Until fighting broke out in July, it had been acting in Gaza as the enforcer of the 2012 truce, pressuring other resistance fighters in Gaza to hold their fire. In April, it formed a unity government with Fatah, in which it ceded primacy to Fatah.
Israel has stated repeatedly its desire to smash Hamas once and for all. On the surface, that would seem an entirely different outcome than Hamas achieving legitimacy. But not really. In either scenario, if Israel continues the occupation, a new resistance force will step-up. Already, there are groups more radical than Hamas operating in Gaza, including Islamic Jihad.
So, in the end, the only real significance of Hamas is that it is the bogeyman du jour.
But no matter what happens to Hamas, Israel always will have a bogeyman, a Palestinian resistance group to demonize, define as terrorists, and use as an excuse to continue a brutal occupation, the systematic persecution of Palestinians and, ultimately, genocide.
Unless and until the rest of the world says “Enough.”
Hearts and Minds
To Bob Lord – You and I both know you don’t intend to acknowledge responses to your posts (although I have been responding to yours), but using this blog as an extension of the Hamas propaganda strategy to sway readers by playing the “look at the inhumanity the Israeli’s are brutally bombing and killing our innocent women and children.” It’s a well-known technique of turning accusations around to confuse the casual lay public.
You talk of moral fiber, but don’t define it — Hamas moral fiber advocates “theological justification” to not only murder infidels, but the murder of their own people, and hide behind women and children as shields. Of course, the Israeli’s are doing the same thing, right?
The killing of Palestinian’s is truly brutally inhumane, BUT let’s get it straight, Hamas has purposefully orchestrated a “self-suicide” strategy to paint Israel as a monster – but Hamas is not fooling anyone. What’s more, one cannot imagine what level of intellect can conceive of a strategy of such outrageous barbarism.
What God would espouse such barbarism? What civilized peoples would accept it? What twisted mind could believe a civilized people would?
I, Bob Lord don’t expect you to reply to my questions, because it won’t square with the Hamas’s twisted logic, a logic you clearly embrace. You speak of your own logic, but avoid the scrutiny of counter-point – I welcome it, why don’t you? Who knows, we may all learn something.
Consider this if you will, if you and I can’t get on the same page, how do you expect the Israeli’s and Palestinians to do it?
Hearts and Minds
To Bob Lord – You and I both know you don’t intend to acknowledge responses to your posts (although I have been responding to yours), but using this blog as an extension of the Hamas propaganda strategy to sway readers by playing the “look at the inhumanity the Israeli’s are brutally bombing and killing our innocent women and children.” It’s a well-known technique of turning accusations around to confuse the casual lay public.
You talk of moral fiber, but don’t define it — Hamas moral fiber advocates “theological justification” to not only murder infidels, but the murder of their own people, and hide behind women and children as shields. Of course, the Israeli’s are doing the same thing, right?
The killing of Palestinian’s is truly brutally inhumane, BUT let’s get it straight, Hamas has purposefully orchestrated a “self-suicide” strategy to paint Israel as a monster – but Hamas is not fooling anyone. What’s more, one cannot imagine what level of intellect can conceive of a strategy of such outrageous barbarism.
What God would espouse such barbarism? What civilized peoples would accept it? What twittered mind could believe a civilized people would?
I, Bob Lord don’t expect you to reply to my questions, because it won’t square with the Hamas’s twisted logic, a logic you clearly embrace. You speck of your own logic, but avoid the scrutiny of counter-point – I welcome it, why don’t you? Who knows, we may all learn something.
Consider this if you will, if you and I can’t get on the same page, how do you expect the Israeli’s and Palestinians to do it?
To Bob Lord’s Red Herring Post
Red Herring Bob? Has Hamas not been lobbing rockets into civilian Israeli populations? Hamas has not vowed to eliminate Israel? Do you expect ALL thinking Americans to buy into Hamas’s perverted logic?
The very Western nations Hamas is trying to win favor by Hamas’s “self-suicide” strategy were the same nations that granted Israel its territorial status! In fact, it is reported that the Arabs themselves profited from the sale of those properties to the immigrating Jews.
So let’s get to the bottom line – Hamas/Palestinians believe a reign of terror is the best way to drive Israel out of the territory? What manner of primitive thinking can believe that can happen, when Israel can wipe Hamas off the face of the Earth if they are pushed too far? Oh, I get it, keep terrorizing Israel until they can’t take it anymore?
Hamas, and those of like thinking, are so completely disconnected from the Western sense of morality, that it makes any compromise impossible. That has been demonstrated in these posts – there is no conversation or acknowledgement – it is simply a Hamas scripted dialogue repeated over and over again.
I would suggest, my questions are going unanswered Bob, because we both know the answers — you Bob Lord don’t want the world to know the real moral high ground Hamas and you claim, but in reality is a religious theology of the dark ages you resonate with and which you do not wish to reveal to the public media.
How does Islam’s vow to rid the world of infidels, not unlike the Nazi vow to create the super-race?
To Bob Lord & Deborah Montesanto
quoting Bob Lord”
“In the Israel – Palestine debate, the actions and supposed intentions of Hamas are invoked in defense of Israel’s actions. Unless and until Hamas is eliminated, the logic goes, Israel has no choice but to continue on its current course.”
Have you read the Hamas Charter lately Bob? How is it that I keep repeating that question and you never answer?
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it”
The Hamas mentality are as impenetrable a mind-set as the Nazi’s world view of the super race, and then claimed anyone that did not accept that view was on the wrong side Gods plan. Sound familiar?
Bob, you never answer questions. Its a one way conversation — no, its not a conversation, its a dumping of your intractable (with what appears to be a) Islamic mind-set. Answer some questions please, lets cut tkrough the rhetoric.
Ciro Verdi, the answers to your questions are in this quote from Jimmy Carter: “This tragedy results from the deliberate obstruction of a promising move toward peace in the region, when a reconciliation agreement among the Palestinian factions was announced in April. This was a major concession by Hamas, in opening Gaza to joint control under a technocratic government that did not include any Hamas members. The new government also pledged to adopt the three basic principles demanded by the Middle East Quartet comprised of the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia: nonviolence, recognition of Israel, and adherence to past agreements. Tragically, Israel rejected this opportunity for peace and has succeeded in preventing the new government’s deployment in Gaza.”
Here is the link to the full article: http://theelders.org/article/gaza-cycle-violence-can-be-broken
In response to Bob Lord – answering questions
Referencing Carter’s
“Gaza: a cycle of violence that can be broken
Writing in Foreign Policy, Jimmy Carter and Mary Robinson argue that to help bring Israelis and Palestinians closer to peace, world leaders must recognize Hamas and pressure both sides to respect international law”.
First: You obviously haven’t been reading the media coverage of Carters administration and his-mind-set, — the short of it to be kind is he has no creditability. Period.
Second: you did it again – avoided many of my direct questions and reverted to your “intractable” scripted pro-Hamas dialogue. You have accused me of being historically ignorant, and I won’t argue the point, but with all your professed knowledge of history, how about providing some specific answers to some specific questions that I believe go to the heart of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict ?
Second: you did it again – avoided many of my direct questions and reverted to your “intractable” scripted pro-Hamas dialogue. You have accused me of being historically ignorant, and I won’t argue the point, but with all your professed knowledge of history, how about providing some specific answers to some specific questions that I believe go to the heart of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict ?
1 Does not Hamas control Gaza?
2 Does not the Hamas charter advocate “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.’?
3 What then is there to negotiate with Israel?
4 Is it true Hamas has launched over 3000 rockets into Israeli civil population?
5 Is it true that a small Israeli populations was effected by the rocket attacks because Israel
protected their peoples with bomb shelters and a missile defense system?
6 Is it true that Israel responded to Hamas rocket attacks, and killed approximately 1600 Palestinians because the Palestinians did not have bomb shelters or a missile defense system? Where did all the cement go to build Gaza’s infrastructure?
7 Is it true reinforced bomb shelters were built by Hamas beneath hospitals, schools, and at no (Israeli) target sites, where Hamas leaders directed rocket launches while the Gaza civilian population was being killed by Israeli trying to knock out those rocket launch site purposely positioned in highly populated areas?
8 Is it true the Israeli military could flatten Gaza in one day if they chose to?
9 Did Hamas not know that??? Sure they did, and purposely provoked Israel to attack!
10. Is it true Hamas is following a strategy of “self-suicide” as a media strategy in an attempt to win favor with the Western nations?
11. Is it true dead Palestinians represent a propaganda victory for the nihilists of Hamas?
Is it true the men who run Hamas, engineers and doctors and lawyers by training are the brain-child of the strategy of “self-suicide”?
13. Are these the same professionals like you and I, and the Jews you spoke of?
I have more Truth or False Questions, but a start with answering any one of the questions may be informative? Or you can ask your own question.
Guess that’s what I get for trying to answer questions to Bob Lord’s questions. Carry on.
*questions to Bob Lord (period)
Your response is full of hatred for Arabs, and spouts a party line, full of lies and distortions, that is increasingly seen as transparent and blatantly false. Jewish journalist Max Blumenthal has said that neither he nor any journalist he knows who has worked in Gaza has ever seen any evidence that Hamas uses civilians as shields. As for your question about rockets, there would be no rockets if there were no illegal occupation. Not that I expect that to make a bit of difference to you, but others might find it interesting food for thought.
I failed to clarify that my last response was to Jerry. Also, Bob, I fully agree with your own response.
What illegal occupation are talking about Deborah? Filled with hatrid and racist against Arabs??? What world are you living in?
To be clear, whenever I meet an Arab I feel an immediate kinship, but I am also deeply fond and respectful of the Jewish people.
So lets cut out the racial BS please!
Answer two questions please:
Does has Hamas recognize Irael’s existance?
Does Hams advocate the total elimination of Israel?
Talk about brutality – you dont hear of Jews strapping themsleves with explosives and blowing themsleves up and inncent civilians in shopping malls, and then celabrating the event.
Not even an animal would treat another animal that way. Hamas, and peoples like them have demonstarted they cannot live in a civilized world, and must be leashed or eliminiated completely like the animals they are.
To Deborah Montesano,
Again
Answer two questions please:
Does has Hamas recognize Irael’s existance?
Does Hams advocate the total elimination of Israel?
Well Deborah, how quickly did you counter Syria’s explanation of it’s action and the use of food money to buy rockets the way Hamas does. Did you look forward to hearing about the schools that teach Anti Semitism from the first grade on? And oh, by the way, there is a situation in the Balkans where Russia is adding land to it portfolio. Any comment on that?
You see, Israel protects its people while Arab leaders use schools and Mosques to store their weapons. Keep looking forward, Deborah and you may soon be able to find additional reasons to dislike Israel.
I appreciate this article so much and I’m looking forward to hearing you speak at PDA on Thursday. It’s so difficult to counter the Israeli narrative that has prevailed for 66 years in order to focus on the truth, as I’m sure you well know. Thank you.
“Scrutiny”, yes. “Careful scrutiny”, no. Bob, you make some incorrect and/or outrageous statements to help you reach your pre-determined conclusion.
1) In your initial paragraph, you say that “logic goes” that Israel must “continue on its current course” to eliminate Hamas. First, Israel’s CURRENT COURSE has been to focus more on the rockets, rocket launchers and cross-border tunnels than on eliminating Hamas (or even its leadership). Second, I have seen and heard more LOGICAL discussion the past week or two that Israel does NOT want to “ELIMINATE” Hamas. For the very reasons you spend the rest of your article setting up – that there would be less-desired partners for peace.
2) Your penultimate paragraph makes the CRAZY assumption that Israel WANTS “to continue a brutal occupation, the systematic persecution of Palestinians and, ultimately, genocide”. NOONE in Israel wants anything like that! No leader wants that. Not even the right-wing religious zealots in Israel want that. And most importantly, ISRAELIS don’t want that; public opinion in Israel is VERY important – perhaps more important than it is in the U.S., due to the parliamentary democracy that has resulted in no confidence votes and not-infrequent changes in the leadership. (The main reason Netanyahu returned to the PM position and remained there for five years is because he has “evolved” even farther away from the nonsensical position you ascribed to him/Israel.)
How you can even PRETEND that Israel has been the party seeking “brutal occupation”, “systematic persecution”, and “GENOCIDE” and – by “logical” extension – that the Palestinians (and, by extension, the Arab world) have been the opposite is unfathomable and without any objective support.
I appreciate your intellect and your writings, but I think you’re reacting emotionally here and trying to make statements not supported by logic or evidence. (Sure, my strong emotional connections are prompting this comment, but I constantly strive to recognize the rights and wrongs by all parties to this difficult-but-NOT-intractable* long-running dispute.)
*There have been times in history when Muslims, Jews – and, even Christians – have peacefully co-existed in that part of the world. It can happen again in our lifetimes.
From the time their young are schooled, they are taught to hate Israel(Jews). And when a conflict such as the current one takes place, the Jew haters come out in full force. One must ask,” why does Hamas continue to send rockets?” The situation in Syria demonstrates a major difference in the cultures. While Israel works to protect its people, Arabs continue to inflict horror on its citizens. I will never be convinced that Israel is wrong as long as the Arab leaders treat their citizens as enemies. The solution to this is for the leaders to lead and promote a agenda beneficial to its citizens and teach understanding not hate.
Jerry, the sweeping generalizations don’t cut it. What underiles them is a belief in your mind that Palestinians, or perhaps Arabs in general, are lesser than Jews. They’re not. You and I are no better than they are.
At the height of the massacre, there were Israelis sitting in lawn chairs, cheering as the bombs dropped on innocent civilians. There were other Israelis in the streets of Tel Aviv, chanting triumphantly about the deaths of Palestinian children. Isreali settlers on the West Bank kill and maim Palestinians, and are not prosecuted. Palestinians are routinely arrested on bogus charges, AND TORTURED, Jerry. There are over 30 laws in Israel that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel.
You’re a decent guy, Jerry, but you’re actively blinding yourself to reality. I had the same outlook you did awhile back. But the more I read, the more I learned, the more I realized I had it wrong. Have some courage, Jerry. Get out of your comfort zone and learn the other side of the story. Read a few books on the opposite perspective. Reach out to a few Palestinians and understand where they’re coming from. They’re just people. They’ll speak to you.